Discussion:
Tsumo Pinfu questions
(too old to reply)
Dwillems
2007-02-28 01:32:37 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

With the scoring for "Tsumo Pinfu" it generally seems to be regarded
to count as a score of 2 Yaku and 20 Fu (base points) - does this ONLY
apply to going tsumo on a pinfu hand, or for example, if you had
Sanshoku Doujun (3 chi of the same number sequence), concealed, with a
non-value pair and won with tsumo, would you then be able to count the
two fu points for the base score and add Pinfu and Menzen Chin yaku on
top of it?

Would applying "reach" on top of "Tsumo Pinfu" change the base score?

Thanks,

David
Alan Kwan
2007-02-28 02:20:55 UTC
Permalink
In Modern Japanese mahjong, /when/ tsumo-pinfu is accepted as 2-faan 20-fu, it
is assumed that you *forgo* the 2-fu for tsumo in order to count the 1-faan for
pinfu. This is irrespective of additional patterns you are also scoring for
your hand.

(BTW, if the above sounds confusing, it is. Modern Japanese is unnecessarily
complicated. Why not try Zung Jung? :) )
Post by Dwillems
Hello,
With the scoring for "Tsumo Pinfu" it generally seems to be regarded
to count as a score of 2 Yaku and 20 Fu (base points) - does this ONLY
apply to going tsumo on a pinfu hand, or for example, if you had
Sanshoku Doujun (3 chi of the same number sequence), concealed, with a
non-value pair and won with tsumo, would you then be able to count the
two fu points for the base score and add Pinfu and Menzen Chin yaku on
top of it?
Would applying "reach" on top of "Tsumo Pinfu" change the base score?
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Archon_Wing
2007-02-28 03:44:24 UTC
Permalink
You know it's really weird how pinfu is "no points" (besides base) yet
it's always 30 fu unless combined with tsumo.
John (Z R) L
2007-02-28 08:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
You know it's really weird how pinfu is "no points" (besides base) yet
it's always 30 fu unless combined with tsumo.
Yes, I find it ironic that they consider forgoing the 2 Fu for Tsumo
Agari, yet when you win by "Ron", you always include the 10 Fu for
Menzen Ron.
John (Z R) L
2007-02-28 08:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
You know it's really weird how pinfu is "no points" (besides base) yet
it's always 30 fu unless combined with tsumo.
Because if they were considering omitting the 2 Fu for "Tsumo Agari"
in order to receive Pinfu, then they may as well omit the 10 Fu for
"Menzen Ron" as well seeing that it is more Fu! Therefore I think they
were more concerned about winning with the "Menzen Tsumo" yaku, so
they consider making it 20 instead.

Basically I think they're being stingy.
John (Z R) L
2007-02-28 09:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
You know it's really weird how pinfu is "no points" (besides base) yet
it's always 30 fu unless combined with tsumo.
(Pardon me if this is the 3rd time I've posted this message, Gmail is
screwing/freezing up a lot for me through Internet Explorer and my
posts at Google Groups don't seem to respond...)

I originally found it ironic that they consider omitting the 2 Fu for
"Tsumo Agari" and not the 10 Fu for Agari via "Menzen Ron" even though
it is more Fu. I therefore think that omitting the whole yaku of
"Pinfu" just to get back the 2 Fu for "Tsumo Agari" for a 30 Fu hand
is extremely stingy/tight of the Japs. Sorry if I offended anybody.
John (Z R) L
2007-02-28 09:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
You know it's really weird how pinfu is "no points" (besides base) yet
it's always 30 fu unless combined with tsumo.
(Pardon me if this is the 3rd time I've posted this message, Gmail is
screwing/freezing up a lot for me through Internet Explorer and my
posts at Google Groups don't seem to respond...)

I originally found it ironic that they consider omitting the 2 Fu for
"Tsumo Agari" and not the 10 Fu for Agari via "Menzen Ron" even though
it is more Fu. I therefore think that omitting the whole yaku of
"Pinfu" just to get back the 2 Fu for "Tsumo Agari" for a 30 Fu hand
is extremely stingy/tight of the Japs. Sorry if I offended anybody.
John (Z R) L
2007-02-28 09:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
You know it's really weird how pinfu is "no points" (besides base) yet
it's always 30 fu unless combined with tsumo.
(Pardon me if this is the 3rd time I've posted this message, Gmail is
screwing/freezing up a lot for me through Internet Explorer and my
posts at Google Groups don't seem to respond...)

I originally found it ironic that they consider omitting the 2 Fu for
"Tsumo Agari" and not the 10 Fu for Agari via "Menzen Ron" even though
it is more Fu. I therefore think that omitting the whole yaku of
"Pinfu" just to get back the 2 Fu for "Tsumo Agari" for a 30 Fu hand
is extremely stingy/tight of the Japs. Sorry if I offended anybody.
Archon_Wing
2007-03-01 03:38:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by John (Z R) L
Post by Archon_Wing
You know it's really weird how pinfu is "no points" (besides base) yet
it's always 30 fu unless combined with tsumo.
(Pardon me if this is the 3rd time I've posted this message, Gmail is
screwing/freezing up a lot for me through Internet Explorer and my
posts at Google Groups don't seem to respond...)
I originally found it ironic that they consider omitting the 2 Fu for
"Tsumo Agari" and not the 10 Fu for Agari via "Menzen Ron" even though
it is more Fu. I therefore think that omitting the whole yaku of
"Pinfu" just to get back the 2 Fu for "Tsumo Agari" for a 30 Fu hand
is extremely stingy/tight of the Japs. Sorry if I offended anybody.
It's funny how they took so many measures to make sure it was base
points-- double sided wait, no scoring pair etc and then require it to
be concealed which does give it points. And the omitting two points
for self draw is also silly, Classical doesn't go that far to prevent
pinfu from having points. But then the Fu system isn't really
necessary imo anyways, wouldn't be surprised if Japanese mahjong
eventually dumps it in the future.
Alan Kwan
2007-03-01 04:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by John (Z R) L
I originally found it ironic that they consider omitting the 2 Fu for
"Tsumo Agari" and not the 10 Fu for Agari via "Menzen Ron" even though
it is more Fu. I therefore think that omitting the whole yaku of
"Pinfu" just to get back the 2 Fu for "Tsumo Agari" for a 30 Fu hand
is extremely stingy/tight of the Japs. Sorry if I offended anybody.
Well, you need to understand the history.

The very first original defintion of Pinfu (according to Haibara) was the
absolute minimum winning hand: no self-draw, no 2 points for single call, no
other faan/fu patterns, no nothing. And it was just a name for the minimum win,
not a faan (or fu) pattern.

When later it got inflated to become a 10-point and later a 1-faan pattern,
various definitions appeared. In early Japanese mahjong, you cannot choose to
forgo the 2-fu for selfdraw in order to score the 1 faan for pinfu. Later, some
people felt that it was too "stingy", so they allowed the forgoing.
Post by Archon_Wing
But then the Fu system isn't really
necessary imo anyways, wouldn't be surprised if Japanese mahjong
eventually dumps it in the future.
The future is now - please try Zung Jung. :)
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Archon_Wing
2007-03-01 08:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Well, you need to understand the history.
The very first original defintion of Pinfu (according to Haibara) was the
absolute minimum winning hand: no self-draw, no 2 points for single call, no
other faan/fu patterns, no nothing. And it was just a name for the minimum win,
not a faan (or fu) pattern.
IMO, that's how it should be. In the context of classical Chinese
Mahjong, adding a double for "no points" defeats the purpose of a
triplet counting system. Doubles are very valuable, and I really think
that just breaks the game. Classical is about going out, and rewarding
the easiest way of going out even more, well...
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Archon_Wing
But then the Fu system isn't really
necessary imo anyways, wouldn't be surprised if Japanese mahjong
eventually dumps it in the future.
The future is now - please try Zung Jung. :)
It does sound interesting; I'll have to convince people to adopt it.
And I've been waiting for one of the online sites to take it up as
well... I would be there pretty fast.
John (Z R) L
2007-03-01 11:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Archon_Wing
But then the Fu system isn't really
necessary imo anyways, wouldn't be surprised if Japanese mahjong
eventually dumps it in the future.
The future is now - please try Zung Jung. :)
It does sound interesting; I'll have to convince people to adopt it.
And I've been waiting for one of the online sites to take it up as
well... I would be there pretty fast.
I think Japanese and Hong Kong MJ are very Yaku-centric. Valuable
hands that are 3+ fan start dealing significant damage to other
people. Mangans are already very painful to the person that got
"Ron"ed. The fact that the Fu is not calculated for hands that are 5+
fan shows that it is has a miniscule role in scoring. Besides, there's
not much difference between a Dealer's 1 Fan 30 Fu hand and a 1 Fan 70
Fu hand via Tsumo (1500 : 3600 points) as opposed to a Dealer's 1 Fan
30 Fu and 3 Fan 30 Fu Tsumo (1500 : 6000 points).
Archon_Wing
2007-03-01 18:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by John (Z R) L
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Archon_Wing
But then the Fu system isn't really
necessary imo anyways, wouldn't be surprised if Japanese mahjong
eventually dumps it in the future.
The future is now - please try Zung Jung. :)
It does sound interesting; I'll have to convince people to adopt it.
And I've been waiting for one of the online sites to take it up as
well... I would be there pretty fast.
I think Japanese and Hong Kong MJ are very Yaku-centric. Valuable
hands that are 3+ fan start dealing significant damage to other
people. Mangans are already very painful to the person that got
"Ron"ed. The fact that the Fu is not calculated for hands that are 5+
fan shows that it is has a miniscule role in scoring. Besides, there's
not much difference between a Dealer's 1 Fan 30 Fu hand and a 1 Fan 70
Fu hand via Tsumo (1500 : 3600 points) as opposed to a Dealer's 1 Fan
30 Fu and 3 Fan 30 Fu Tsumo (1500 : 6000 points).
Not only that, but the Fu rarely varies. It's almost always 30 fu for
exposed hands and 40 fu for concealed hands. Kans and hidden pongs can
change this but then again Japanese modern is sequence based
anyways... ;;
Alan Kwan
2007-03-02 00:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
Well, you need to understand the history.
The very first original defintion of Pinfu (according to Haibara) was the
absolute minimum winning hand: no self-draw, no 2 points for single call, no
other faan/fu patterns, no nothing. And it was just a name for the minimum win,
not a faan (or fu) pattern.
IMO, that's how it should be. In the context of classical Chinese
Mahjong, adding a double for "no points" defeats the purpose of a
triplet counting system. Doubles are very valuable, and I really think
that just breaks the game. Classical is about going out, and rewarding
the easiest way of going out even more, well...
I agree. I believe that the adopting of the "No Points" pattern was the first
step in hyper-inflation: it's clearly a lot easier than the other 1-faan
patterns. The combo effect with "Totally Concealed Hand" made it worse.
(Totally Concealed hands are most easily made with sequences.) It was this move
that as you mentioned diminished the significance of the triplet-points which
inspired the development of HKOS, and also caused the need for the later
increase of faan values in HKOS etc.

(Thus, I don't think that Millington's was a well-balanced system. Classical
Japanese was worse.)
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
The future is now - please try Zung Jung. :)
It does sound interesting; I'll have to convince people to adopt it.
Please tell them that it is the system being adopted by the highest-level
international mahjong competition. As the Chinese saying goes, "A rich reward
will attract the brave hero." 「重賞之下,必有勇夫。」 The best mahjong players
will come to the World Series of Mahjong.
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Archon_Wing
2007-03-02 04:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Please tell them that it is the system being adopted by the highest-level
international mahjong competition. As the Chinese saying goes, "A rich reward
will attract the brave hero." 「重賞之下,必有勇夫。」 The best mahjong players
will come to the World Series of Mahjong.
Far enough. My circle of friend prefers to play for fun instead of
anything at stake because they are concerned that we don't know the
"correct rules" and won't accept my explanation that rules vary. They
would ascertain that the version their parents play is the "correct"
way which leads to funny situations since it leads to a lot of hearsay
"but at my house..." Yea, I know we are to agree on the rules first,
but there's a bunch of stuff that gets overlooked.

Anyhow, I suppose this could work, as there some kind of official
recognition here. Our previous search for a set of "official" rules
was Chinese Official, and I have a strong dislike for that. ;) I
should go ahead and print the zung jung rules out. Honestly, I've been
using the Zung Jung rules as a basis for determining the value of
certain hands anyways, so making that switch might not be that hard.
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-02 11:19:05 UTC
Permalink
"Alan Kwan" <***@nospam> wrote in message news:45e77625$***@127.0.0.1...
[...]
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
The future is now - please try Zung Jung. :)
It does sound interesting; I'll have to convince people to adopt it.
Please tell them that it is the system being adopted by the highest-level
international mahjong competition....
Some questions:

a) What is the difference between "Zung Jung Mahjong Scoring System" and
"zung jung mahjong scoring system?" Would writing the term in the latter
form considered lack of knowledge of the mahjong world, or ignoring other's
intellectual property rights, either intentionally or otherwise?

b) How do English speaking people pronounce "Zung Jung" without being taught
of the difference first? "Z" as in zoo or prize and "J" as in jungle or
mahjong?

c) (This being a private prediction and I'll keep this.) ;-)
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Alan Kwan
2007-03-02 14:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
a) What is the difference between "Zung Jung Mahjong Scoring System" and
"zung jung mahjong scoring system?" Would writing the term in the latter
form considered lack of knowledge of the mahjong world, or ignoring other's
intellectual property rights, either intentionally or otherwise?
Before I answer that, a question:

Do you know English? The use of English as of today, not that of 30 years ago?
Post by Cofa Tsui
b) How do English speaking people pronounce "Zung Jung" without being taught
of the difference first? "Z" as in zoo or prize and "J" as in jungle or
mahjong?
There is no way I know of romanizing Cantonese pronunciations that can be read
accurately without being taught first.

And this is one of the reasons why Jyut Ping was developed - by the academic and
linguistic society in Hong Kong. Since none can be read accurately without
being taught first, at least make one that can be read accurately *after* being
taught first.

Or are you sure that Jesus like the way English-speaking people pronounce his
name? Look up "yawn" in the dictionary and see how they denote the pronounciation.

A piece of Chinese wisdom: "The fool displays his folly by pretending to be clever."
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
ithinc
2007-03-02 16:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Cofa Tsui
a) What is the difference between "Zung Jung Mahjong Scoring System" and
"zung jung mahjong scoring system?" Would writing the term in the latter
form considered lack of knowledge of the mahjong world, or ignoring other's
intellectual property rights, either intentionally or otherwise?
Do you know English? The use of English as of today, not that of 30 years ago?
Post by Cofa Tsui
b) How do English speaking people pronounce "Zung Jung" without being taught
of the difference first? "Z" as in zoo or prize and "J" as in jungle or
mahjong?
There is no way I know of romanizing Cantonese pronunciations that can be read
accurately without being taught first.
And this is one of the reasons why Jyut Ping was developed - by the academic and
linguistic society in Hong Kong. Since none can be read accurately without
being taught first, at least make one that can be read accurately *after* being
taught first.
Or are you sure that Jesus like the way English-speaking people pronounce his
name? Look up "yawn" in the dictionary and see how they denote the pronounciation.
A piece of Chinese wisdom: "The fool displays his folly by pretending to be clever."
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
Zung Jung mahjong official website:http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
You two had better fight on the mahjong table, using Zung Jung and IMJ
alternately. ^_^
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-02 17:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by ithinc
Post by Cofa Tsui
a) What is the difference between "Zung Jung Mahjong Scoring System" and
"zung jung mahjong scoring system?" Would writing the term in the latter
form considered lack of knowledge of the mahjong world, or ignoring other's
intellectual property rights, either intentionally or otherwise?
Do you know English?  The use of English as of today, not that of 30 years ago?
My answers: Yes; and as of today. Now your answer, please?
Post by ithinc
Post by Cofa Tsui
b) How do English speaking people pronounce "Zung Jung" without being taught
of the difference first? "Z" as in zoo or prize and "J" as in jungle or
mahjong?
[...]
But any answer to the original question, please?
Post by ithinc
A piece of Chinese wisdom: "The fool displays his folly by pretending to be clever."
I just tried to bring up a hint of an alternative way of presenting
the term (i.e., a name change ^_^). If you apply the English speaking
people's "usual" vocalization of the term and compare that of any
possible terms of Cantonese you'll know what I mean - If not, email me
(^_^)
Post by ithinc
You two had better fight on the mahjong table, using Zung Jung and IMJ
alternately. ^_^- Hide quoted text -
Hello Ithinc, my message was not about a "fight;" it's about one's
knowledge of the mahjong world and whether he/she respects other's
intellectual property rights. IMJ and International Mahjong are both
registered trademarks; and I certainly know that Zung Jung (as related
to mahjong) is a name of others. This is common knowledge of the
mahjong world (at least to those regulars of this newsgroup). And I
certainly have the respect of other's right and will not mess up
other's brand name to pretend to be talking something else.

Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Julian Bradfield
2007-03-02 17:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
Hello Ithinc, my message was not about a "fight;" it's about one's
knowledge of the mahjong world and whether he/she respects other's
intellectual property rights. IMJ and International Mahjong are both
registered trademarks;
The incompetence of CIPO in registering your trademark, which manages
the amazing feat of being both "clearly descriptive" (because the game
of mah-jong has been an international game for the last century) and
"deceptively misdescriptive" (because *your* IMJ has nothing
international about it), is fortunately of no concern to those us who
do not live in Canada.

Kindly remember that you are posting in an international forum; if you
don't like that, feel free to set up a specifically canadian group,
where you can assert your trademark all you like.
Archon_Wing
2007-03-02 20:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Hah, I'll be blunt. Being trademarked has nothing to do with quality.
I'll leave you to take it for what that means.
Archon_Wing
2007-03-02 23:05:14 UTC
Permalink
Julian Bradfield,
I have no idea why Google groups isn't displaying your message so I'll
Er, to whom are you replying?
Hah, I'll be blunt. Being trademarked has nothing to do with quality.
I'll leave you to take it for what that means.
To clarify the above post, I am not replaying to any person or quote
in particular. It was just a remark about the relationship of a
product's quality and the fact of whether it is trademarked or not.
Think about all those crappy movies that have been made. Just some
food for thought I suppose.
Nath Krismaratala
2007-03-03 15:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Archon_Wing
Hah, I'll be blunt. Being trademarked has nothing to do with quality.
I'll leave you to take it for what that means.
To clarify the above post, I am not replaying to any person or quote
in particular.
I won't give Cofa any excuses. The Canadian trademark "International
Mahjong" and, especially, the Web site that comes along with it, are
the worst thing that happened to the Mahjong scene. It misleads
newcomers to Mahjong. I'm sure many people wasted a lot of time before
understanding IMJ has nothing "international" about it. It's Cofa's
personal illusion of riches and fame. And, because of the weird
terminology, which only Cofa likes, it's barely reassembles Mahjong
and many people lost interest. The biggest waste of time and effort in
the history of Mahjong. And a sad story of one man's absurd obsession.
Archon_Wing
2007-03-03 19:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nath Krismaratala
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Archon_Wing
Hah, I'll be blunt. Being trademarked has nothing to do with quality.
I'll leave you to take it for what that means.
To clarify the above post, I am not replaying to any person or quote
in particular.
I won't give Cofa any excuses. The Canadian trademark "International
Mahjong" and, especially, the Web site that comes along with it, are
the worst thing that happened to the Mahjong scene. It misleads
newcomers to Mahjong. I'm sure many people wasted a lot of time before
understanding IMJ has nothing "international" about it. It's Cofa's
personal illusion of riches and fame. And, because of the weird
terminology, which only Cofa likes, it's barely reassembles Mahjong
and many people lost interest. The biggest waste of time and effort in
the history of Mahjong. And a sad story of one man's absurd obsession.
Very well, I won't hold back anymore. ;)

Let me give you some of my experience with this IMJ. Oh and btw, check
out Amazon.com's reviews about IMJ, I'm sure you'll have a chuckle

Well, at first I was trying to find a consistent rule set for my
friends and I to play with. So I come across this IMJ, and at first it
looks promising. The rules are structured like they would in a
tournament and I thought it might be some rulebook. Cool!

Unfortunately, IMJ is much more style than substance. What new things
does it bring to the table? The Chinese terms are nothing new. It's
the standard ones! And the English terms are confusing and I really
don't care for them. It's absurd to think that by making an English
word that sounds like Chinese one would understand the game better. If
you didn't know any Chinese, are you going to be learning it by
changing the way you speak English? No, just learn the freaking
language! IMO, any mahjong enthusiast would probaly be curious to
learn the Chinese pronunciation, but seriously people operate best in
the language they are familiar with, no? Don't confuse them. I must
reckon, if I took your discard and showed exposed 2 identical tiles,
you would know I just ponged your tile, even if I decided to say
"cheese" everytime I did it. It would be annoying though. :)

And we already have terminology that most people can easily
understand. Bamboos are those stick tiles. Dots are pretty
explanatory. I don't like craks or dragons, but it's not enough to
start a new system.

But forget about the terminology. I personally don't care that much.
My main concern is the scoring system itself. It's all over the place
and I have no idea what's going on. It looks like the unwanted mutant
child of CO and HKOS, and man it sure isn't pretty. It's very poorly
balanced, with all the non-HKOS patterns being very undervalued which
suggests the author just stuck those patterns in without any extra
foresight. And I have no idea why the player who gets their kong
robbed gets penalized so heavy? Is there a basis in that? The HKOS
patterns are fine, but that's pretty obvious why since common values
are used.

There is no point in having a universal standard for mahjong. One of
the beauty of Mahjong is the huge variety of flavors. Declaring
"International Mahjong" is like saying everyone should only eat
strawberry ice cream (and claiming you invented it). Having a standard
for competitive mahjong is different, but that would require the
scoring system to be balanced and international Mahjong definitely
does not qualify. I will go more in depth if asked to, but I really
think my own house rules are better. :(
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-10 10:19:25 UTC
Permalink
So many postings and so many deals to handle - Deals should come first so
now it's time for the postings. I'll start with this one...

"Archon_Wing" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

[...]

Comments on aspects related to International Mahjong are always welcome and
will be taken for consideration of future improvements, and with thanks.

No one product or service on earth is perfect; International Mahjong is no
exception. However, as owner of the trademarked products, I can guarantee
that any question that comes to my attention will be attended to promptly.
Feel free to write via the contact on my website.
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Archon_Wing
2007-03-10 20:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
So many postings and so many deals to handle - Deals should come first so
now it's time for the postings. I'll start with this one...
[...]
Comments on aspects related to International Mahjong are always welcome and
will be taken for consideration of future improvements, and with thanks.
No one product or service on earth is perfect; International Mahjong is no
exception. However, as owner of the trademarked products, I can guarantee
that any question that comes to my attention will be attended to promptly.
Feel free to write via the contact on my website.
--
Cofa Tsuiwww.iMahjong.com
Very well, I shall direct you to.... this newsgroup itself! There is
so much information about Mahjong balance and gameplay. I recommend
you thoroughly examine the topics here. All your answers are literally
under your nose.

I'm not sure how you've been taking the criticism from the other
posters here. How much of an effort have you made an effort to improve
your system?
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-11 02:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Very well, I shall direct you to.... this newsgroup itself! There is
so much information about Mahjong balance and gameplay. I recommend
you thoroughly examine the topics here. All your answers are literally
under your nose.
I'm not sure how you've been taking the criticism from the other
posters here. How much of an effort have you made an effort to improve
your system?- Hide quoted text -
Thanks Archon. I've been with this group for long. I've participated
in voting for its creation. Your comments have been taken with thanks.

-----
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Archon_Wing
2007-03-11 02:52:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
Post by Archon_Wing
Very well, I shall direct you to.... this newsgroup itself! There is
so much information about Mahjong balance and gameplay. I recommend
you thoroughly examine the topics here. All your answers are literally
under your nose.
I'm not sure how you've been taking the criticism from the other
posters here. How much of an effort have you made an effort to improve
your system?- Hide quoted text -
Thanks Archon. I've been with this group for long. I've participated
in voting for its creation. Your comments have been taken with thanks.
-----
Cofa Tsuiwww.iMahjong.com
I am aware that you have been part of this newsgroup for a while.
However, because of the way the brain works, it is easy to pass over
various nuances when you first read things. If you reread many of the
older posts here, you would probably be surprised on how much you'd
discover.
Nath Krismaratala
2007-03-14 05:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
No one product or service on earth is perfect; International Mahjong is no
exception. However, as owner of the trademarked products, I can guarantee
that any question that comes to my attention will be attended to promptly.
Really? What a piece of BS! But, since you still hide your head in the
sand, in profound denial, I'll ask you again the same questions posted
Post by Cofa Tsui
1) How many IMJ Mahjong sets have you sold in the last 17 years? In
Canada? Elsewhere in the World?
2) How many international competitions or international Mahjong
gatherings have you organised? In Canada? Elsewhere in the World?
3) Out of your guesstimate of the 98 millions of Mahjong players in
the World, how many actually adopted IMJ rules? How many have IMJ
member cards?
4) How do you explain every single international, national or local
Mahjong association or federation don't use your IMJ products?
5) Why there is no mention of IMJ inside World's most important
Mahjong museum, in Chiba, Japan? Or in any other Mahjong exhibit
anywhere in the World?
Try to answer truthfully and completely for once. Not like the stupid
Post by Cofa Tsui
I suspect that everybody here considers the [IMJ] trademark absurd.
I won't pay even the least attention to things that are considered absurd
by me; not to mention if those things are considered absurd by everybody!
For once, don't hide in delusions to avoid confronting reality. Don't
fool yourself. Below are some hints.

-----
*Wishful thinking* is the formation of beliefs and making decisions
according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing
to evidence or rationality.

In addition to being a cognitive bias and a poor way of making
decisions, wishful thinking can also be a specific logical fallacy in
an argument when it is assumed that because we wish something to be
true or false that it is actually true or false. This fallacy has the
form "I wish that P is true/false, therefore P is true/false."

----
In psychology and cognitive science, *confirmation bias* is a tendency
to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's
preconceptions and to avoid "counter-attitudinal" new information. It
is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive
inference toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study. It refers
to the tendency for people to extend critical scrutiny to information
which contradicts their prior beliefs and uncritically accept
information that is congruent with their prior beliefs.

There are prosaic reasons why beliefs persevere despite contrary
evidence. Embarrassment over having to withdraw a publicly declared
belief, for example, or stubbornness or hope.

The behavior of confirmation bias has been named "Tolstoy syndrome"
after a quote from Count Leo Tolstoy (1828-1910): "I know that most
men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity,
can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have
proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread,
into the fabrics of their life".

----

*Denial* is a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact
that is too painful to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that
it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

*Denial of fact*: This form of denial is where someone avoids a fact
by lying (to others or to oneself). This lying can take the form of an
outright falsehood (commission), leaving out certain details in order
to tailor a story (omission), or by falsely agreeing to something
(assent, also referred to as "yesing" behavior). Someone who is in
denial of fact is typically using lies in order to avoid facts that
they think may be potentially painful to themselves or others.

*Denial of denial*: This can be a difficult concept for many people to
identify in themselves, but is a major barrier to changing hurtful
behaviors. Denial of denial involves thoughts, actions and behaviors
which bolster confidence that nothing needs to be changed in ones
personal behavior. This form of denial typically overlaps with all of
the other forms of denial, but involves more self-delusion.

----

*Myside bias* : The term "myside bias" was coined by David Perkins,
myside referring to "my" side of the issue under consideration. An
important consequence of the myside bias is that many incorrect
beliefs are slow to change and often become stronger even when
evidence is presented which should weaken the belief. Generally, such
irrational belief persistence results from according too much weight
to evidence that accords with one's belief, and too little weight to
evidence that does not. It can also result from the failure to search
impartially for information.


----
*Sunk costs* : Many people have strong misgivings about "wasting"
resources. This is called "loss aversion". Many people, for example,
would feel obligated to go to the movie despite not really wanting to,
because doing otherwise would be wasting the ticket price; they feel
they passed the point of no return. This is sometimes called the sunk
cost fallacy. Economists would label this behaviour "irrational": It
is inefficient because it allocates resources wrongly by depending on
information that is irrelevant to the decision being made.

The idea of sunk costs is often employed when analysing business
decisions. A common example of a sunk cost for a business is the
promotion of a brand name. This type of marketing incurs costs that
cannot normally be recovered. It is not typically possible to later
"demote" one's brand names in exchange for cash (except perhaps as an
exit strategy from a market). Decisions about future investments,
sales or more advertising should be made based on future
possibilities, not biased by the recent large investment in the
advertising that the company made last year (or even last week).

The sunk cost fallacy is also sometimes known as the "Concorde
Effect", referring to the fact that the British and French government
continued to fund the joint development of Concorde even after it
became apparent that there was no longer an economic case for the
aircraft. The project was regarded privately by the British government
as a "commercial disaster" which should never have been started, and
was almost cancelled, but political and legal issues ultimately made
it impossible for either government to pull out.

---
*Escalation of commitment* is the phenomenon where people increase
their investment in a decision despite new evidence suggesting that
the decision was probably wrong. Such investment may include money
(known informally as "throwing good money after bad"), time, or - in
the case of military strategy - human lives. The term is also used to
describe poor decision-making in business, government, information
systems in general, software project management in particular,
politics, and gambling.

Cofa Tsui
2007-03-03 06:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julian Bradfield
Post by Cofa Tsui
Hello Ithinc, my message was not about a "fight;" it's about one's
knowledge of the mahjong world and whether he/she respects other's
intellectual property rights. IMJ and International Mahjong are both
registered trademarks;
The incompetence of CIPO in registering your trademark, which manages
the amazing feat of being both "clearly descriptive" (because the game
of mah-jong has been an international game for the last century) and
"deceptively misdescriptive" (because *your* IMJ has nothing
international about it), is fortunately of no concern to those us who
do not live in Canada.
International Mahong was created before 1990. International mahong did not
exist then, was only an imagination, hence it's intellectual property.
Application was filed in 1990 and the trademark International Mahong became
registrated in 1993. I did not make decision to the application. I only
created the name and my trademark agent handled the application on my
behalf.

International mahjong is a creative concept, a vision many considered
impossible even in the year 1999! [view IMJ Archives - 015 at
http://imahjong.com/maiarchives015.html] Protecting one's intellectual
property rights in order to encourage creativity and innovations - I believe
CIPO's decision has its ground.
Post by Julian Bradfield
Kindly remember that you are posting in an international forum; if you
don't like that, feel free to set up a specifically canadian group,
where you can assert your trademark all you like.
Knowledge and respect to other's rights are moral issues. Do you mean to
encourage ignorance to these issues in this international forum?
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Julian Bradfield
2007-03-03 13:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
International mahjong is a creative concept, a vision many considered
impossible even in the year 1999! [view IMJ Archives - 015 at
http://imahjong.com/maiarchives015.html] Protecting one's intellectual
property rights in order to encourage creativity and innovations - I believe
CIPO's decision has its ground.
For someone so concerned with intellectual property, you seem to
understand remarkably little about it. Your concept of IMJ - namely a
specially cooked-up version of mah-jong that is different from every
version actually played, and in particular different from every
internationally played version - is certainly yours, and no one would
want to deny your moral and legal rights in that concept.
However, the trademark "international mahjong" is not about your
concept at all - it is a property right in two common words put
together. I suspect that everybody here considers the trademark absurd.
Post by Cofa Tsui
Knowledge and respect to other's rights are moral issues. Do you mean to
encourage ignorance to these issues in this international forum?
You have no moral rights to the phrase "international mahjong". At
present you have legal rights to it in Canada, owing to an
inexplicable decision. Unfortunately, it seems that CIPO is strongly
biased in favour of trademark applicants (they charge three times as
much to oppose an application as to make it!), regardless of the
suppression of others' rights that this might result in.
Alan Kwan
2007-03-03 15:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julian Bradfield
However, the trademark "international mahjong" is not about your
concept at all - it is a property right in two common words put
together. I suspect that everybody here considers the trademark absurd.
Well, at least in the laws of Hong Kong, anyone can use "international mahjong",
regardless of anyone's trademarks, to describe a version of mahjong that is
honestly intended to be international.

In HK, "Orange" is a registered trademark (of a mobile phone company). But that
doesn't force supermarkets to label oranges as "citric apples".

http://www.legislation.gov.hk/BLIS_IND.nsf/FB2D3FD8A4E2A3264825647C0030A9E1/DE560351BA8A2C6E4825697D0028E34D?OpenDocument

#3c,d
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Tom Sloper
2007-03-03 17:09:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julian Bradfield
I suspect that everybody here considers the trademark absurd.
That's a fair statement. As I recall, the very first posts in this newsgroup
were about the IMJ trademark, in fact.
Cheers
Tom
John (Z R) L
2007-03-03 22:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
1 fan 3SS/Itsu is an attrocity IMO. Many of us do share that
sentiment. ;p
So do I. I might consider a transition to Chinese Official or Zung
Jung style, then I can start using nice Poker Chips to record the
score instead of the "imitation" scoring sticks which I made for
Japanese rules using Craft popsicle sticks and red/green/black dots on
them. :)
Tom Sloper
2007-03-03 23:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by John (Z R) L
then I can start using nice Poker Chips to record the
score instead of the "imitation" scoring sticks which I made for
Japanese rules using Craft popsicle sticks and red/green/black dots on
them. :)
You can also use Monopoly money! (^_^)
John (Z R) L
2007-03-04 01:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sloper
You can also use Monopoly money! (^_^)
I considered that in the past, but their highest bill denominations
are $1000 and $500. I refuse to use a 1:10 ratio when doing score
conversions. (10000, 5000, 1000, 500?, 100 point sticks). I don't
actually know what the 500 point stick looks like though because the
5000 point one is 5-Red dots.
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-10 10:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sloper
Post by Julian Bradfield
I suspect that everybody here considers the trademark absurd.
That's a fair statement. As I recall, the very first posts in this
newsgroup were about the IMJ trademark, in fact.
I won't pay even the least attention to things that are considered absurd by
me; not to mention if those things are considered absurd by everybody!

International Mahjong and IMJ are registered trademarks, whether others like
it or not it is a fact. I have to do whatever needed on my part as I am
serious about my rights; anyone's lack of knowledge and ignorance of respect
of others won't change my situations. And, I believe the law system
worldwide is comprehensive enough to handle any situations should they
arise.
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Alan Kwan
2007-03-10 11:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
I believe the law system
worldwide is comprehensive enough to handle any situations should they
arise.
They do - and they just rendered your trademark virtually useless.
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-10 20:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
I believe the law system worldwide is comprehensive enough to handle any
situations should they arise.
They do - and they just rendered your trademark virtually useless.
Poor cut and p
Nath Krismaratala
2007-03-03 15:26:26 UTC
Permalink
I believe CIPO's decision has its ground.
Not the ones you imagine. It's not a seal of approval from the
Canadian government. It doesn't celebrate a great idea or invention.
It doesn't make you the inventor of the concept of international
Mahjong. It's similar to registering a domain name on the Internet.

For the Government, it's easy money for almost no work. For you, it
makes a little bit easier suing copycats who would sell a Mahjong set
misleadingly similar to your design.

You don't own everything "international" about Mahjong, in Canada or
elsewhere.

Registering a trademark makes sense if you sell a reputable product
others might actually want to copy or imitate.

By the way,

1) How many IMJ Mahjong sets have you sold in the last 17 years? In
Canada? Elsewhere in the World?

2) How many international competitions or international Mahjong
gatherings have you organised? In Canada? Elsewhere in the World?

3) Out of your guesstimate of the 98 millions of Mahjong players in
the World, how many actually adopted IMJ rules? How many have IMJ
member cards?

4) How do you explain every single international, national or local
Mahjong association or federation don't use your IMJ products?

5) Why there is no mention of IMJ inside World's most important
Mahjong museum, in Chiba, Japan? Or in any other Mahjong exhibit
anywhere in the World?
Alan Kwan
2007-03-03 04:17:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
IMJ and International Mahjong are both
registered trademarks
Try registering them as trademarks in Hong Kong or China, and then we can talk.

(My point is, the Canada trademark office probably didn't have a clue, otherwise
such trademark application would probably be rejected.)
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-03 06:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Cofa Tsui
IMJ and International Mahjong are both
registered trademarks
Try registering them as trademarks in Hong Kong or China, and then we can talk.
Trademarks registered in Canada also enjoy protection in member countries of
relative international treaties. Instead, try persuade any "highest-level"
organizers in Hong Kong or China to invest in events using the registered
trademark International Mahong without a written permission ^_^
Post by Alan Kwan
(My point is, the Canada trademark office probably didn't have a clue,
otherwise such trademark application would probably be rejected.)
This was answered in reply to Julian's post.
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Alan Kwan
2007-03-03 08:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Cofa Tsui
IMJ and International Mahjong are both
registered trademarks
Try registering them as trademarks in Hong Kong or China, and then we can talk.
Trademarks registered in Canada also enjoy protection in member countries of
relative international treaties. Instead, try persuade any "highest-level"
organizers in Hong Kong or China to invest in events using the registered
trademark International Mahong without a written permission ^_^
No one else is making a set of mahjong rules and calling them "International
Mahjong". Zung Jung is a set of mahjong rules designed for international
"mahjong competitions".

And when we mention international mahjong competitions, everyone understands
that it is NOT referring to nor suggesting a mahjong competition using your IMJ
rules. There is nothing confusing or misleading here; no one is stealing your
trademark. So you do not have a case.

And the Chinese authorities have run many international mahjong competitions
since the release of COMJ.
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-03 08:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Cofa Tsui
Trademarks registered in Canada also enjoy protection in member countries
of relative international treaties. Instead, try persuade any
"highest-level" organizers in Hong Kong or China to invest in events
using the registered trademark International Mahong without a written
permission ^_^
No one else is making a set of mahjong rules and calling them
"International Mahjong". Zung Jung is a set of mahjong rules designed for
international "mahjong competitions".
And when we mention international mahjong competitions, everyone
understands that it is NOT referring to nor suggesting a mahjong
competition using your IMJ rules. There is nothing confusing or
misleading here; no one is stealing your trademark. So you do not have a
case.
Lack of knowledge and non-respect to other's trademark rights won't change
the status of a registered trademark. The highest-level organizers and
persons know this well.
Post by Alan Kwan
And the Chinese authorities have run many international mahjong
competitions since the release of COMJ.
Did you see International Mahjong in their event titles? By the way, which
"Chinese authorities?" And what really is "COMJ"? You know, I mean how it
was come about.
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Alan Kwan
2007-03-03 14:57:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
Post by Alan Kwan
And when we mention international mahjong competitions, everyone
understands that it is NOT referring to nor suggesting a mahjong
competition using your IMJ rules. There is nothing confusing or
misleading here; no one is stealing your trademark. So you do not have a
case.
Lack of knowledge and non-respect to other's trademark rights won't change
the status of a registered trademark. The highest-level organizers and
persons know this well.
A trademark doesn't totally prevent others from using the words. It only
prevents others from using the words in a manner which would cause confusion
with your trademark.

If we say "international mahjong" without your permission, and the general
public would confuse our use with your trademark, then we are stealing your
trademark. Since this is certainly not the case, you don't have a case.

The public understands what "international mahjong competitions" are, and that
it has absolutely nothing to do with your IMJ. Lack of knowledge and untrue
claims about one's trademark rights won't change that. We all know this well.

There are also allowable uses of trademarks. Anyone can freely call
international mahjong competitions "international mahjong competitions",
regardless of anyone's trademarks, because that is what they are and such
description is necessary.

(At least in Hong Kong:
http://www.legislation.gov.hk/blis_ind.nsf/6033a8cc1f220686482564840019d2f2/3873e6f34ef9625d4825697d0028e3f6?OpenDocument
#3c,d )

Common sense prevails.
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Nath Krismaratala
2007-03-03 15:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
A trademark doesn't totally prevent others from using the words. It only
prevents others from using the words in a manner which would cause confusion
with your trademark.
If we say "international mahjong" without your permission, and the general
public would confuse our use with your trademark, then we are stealing your
trademark. Since this is certainly not the case, you don't have a case.
The public understands what "international mahjong competitions" are, and that
it has absolutely nothing to do with your IMJ. Lack of knowledge and untrue
claims about one's trademark rights won't change that. We all know this well.
There are also allowable uses of trademarks. Anyone can freely call
international mahjong competitions "international mahjong competitions",
regardless of anyone's trademarks, because that is what they are and such
description is necessary.
Common sense prevails.
*At least in Hong Kong*
If you read carefully the Canadian trademark's regulations, the
exactly same principles apply in Canada.
Alan Kwan
2007-03-04 15:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nath Krismaratala
If you read carefully the Canadian trademark's regulations, the
exactly same principles apply in Canada.
Poor Cofa. The CIPO clearly should have rejected his trademark for being
"plainly descriptive".
But intead they just took his money - for which Cofa couldn't get any useful
"protection" at all in return (since it /is/ plainly descriptive).
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
J R
2007-03-05 01:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
The CIPO clearly should have rejected his trademark for
being "plainly descriptive".
But intead they just took his money - for which Cofa couldn't get any
useful "protection" at all in return (since it is plainly descriptive).
To clarify this side topic:

In the USA, Canada, et al, it is not the government's function to
authenticate copyrights, trademarks, and service marks. They simply
provide a registration service so that prospective words and phrases can
be easily researched (this was of greater importance before the
Internet). Registration itself does not constitute validity. It is up to
the registrants to defend their rights if challenged. Clearly, a plainly
descriptive word or phrase cannot be defended.

[This is all quite different from a patent. Applications for a patent
are scrutinized by experts in technology and law. Even then, as we see
so often, holding a patent provides only a small edge if there is a
reasonable basis for a challenge].

Note: the titles of books, songs, movies, etc. cannot be copyrighted at
all. Only their contents (lyrics, story, characters, etc.) are eligible
for this (rather weak) protection.

Note: one need not file a copyright at all. Unregistered words and
phrases associated with a product or service can be successfully
defended, but the court is unlikely to award punitive damages in such a
case.

So, as an example, the name of our product "Hong Kong Mahjong for
Windows", being the title of a software program and being plainly
descriptive, is not sacred. The copyright applies only to the animated
characters' names and faces, the tunes, the logo, the overall "look and
feel" of the graphics.

As another example, a scoring system for mahjong is a document, its
contents (but not its title) suitable for copyright protection, but only
if it contains new concepts and/or unique descriptions (e.g. calling the
Bamboo tiles "Tweeties". :)
--
J. R. Fitch
Nine Dragons Software
San Francisco, CA USA
http://www.ninedragons.com
d***@my-deja.com
2007-03-05 16:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Nath Krismaratala
If you read carefully the Canadian trademark's regulations, the
exactly same principles apply in Canada.
Poor Cofa. The CIPO clearly should have rejected his trademark for being
"plainly descriptive".
But intead they just took his money - for which Cofa couldn't get any useful
"protection" at all in return (since it /is/ plainly descriptive).
In the USA, "A trademark or service mark is always an adjective -
never a noun or a verb - and always begins with a capital letter.
Trademarks are proper adjectives, since they identify the specific
source of the trademarked products or services."

So in the specific case of "international mahjong", it is an issue
ONLY IF we use the two words together as an adjective to describe a
product that it would infringe on the trademark. So everyone, please
take a deep breath, there is no need to get your panties all twisted
in a bunch over the trademark issue. We can use "international
mahjong" (or windows, or xerox, or ...) all day without fear because
we are not using the term as an adjective.
Nath Krismaratala
2007-03-05 19:39:27 UTC
Permalink
In the USA, ...
Doesn't matter how trademarks work in the USA, in Togo or in India.
Cofa registered his trademark in CANADA. Funny, when you think about
it : even his registration has not any international value or quality
attached to it.
John (Z R) L
2007-03-05 23:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Well honestly, I've had an antagonistic relationship with non-scoring
winds. The first time I really played Mahjong, I was playing at a
friend's house who had a really strange rule-- You couldn't score
Mixed one suit if you had non scoring winds.
In Japanese mj, there is a local yaku called "Ura Kaze" (Inner Wind) I
think, where you score 1 Fan for getting a Pon/Kan of the opposite
wind. E.g. Player East melds "West" (Vice Versa) and Player South
melds "North". I also added "Kinchi Doku Ritsu" which is 1 Fan for
having all 4 melds revealed, and winning on the last pair.
Post by Archon_Wing
HKOS inherited its pattern list from Chinese Classical, which really wasn't a
pattern-centered system to begin with, thus there were simply not enough
patterns to sustain pattern-building play. Adding a single pattern, Three
Similar Sequences, would work 3 times as many wonders as any minimum requirement.
I personally found the Yahoo rules very bland, they don't even award 1
Fan for "Tanyao" or "Self Pick". So for 3 Fan or even 5/7 Fan games,
virtually everyone aims for a "Koutsu kei" (Pon/Kan related) or "Iisou
kei" (One suit related) hand. Although I do like the fact that "Toi
toi" (All Triples) is actually 3 Fan, unlike the 2 Fan in Japanese.
Post by Archon_Wing
I find it really annoying that the spaces are so big so that 4
and 6 fan hands are worth the same. This could mean Mixed one suit+ no
flower is worth the same as Pure One Suit. That feels very wrong. And
of course self draw makes it even more ridiculous.
The same problem occurs in Japanese. 6-7 Fan is Haneman. If I get 7
Fan, I feel a bit annoyed that I'm 1 Fan short of Baiman, which
would've increased the score from 12000/18000 to 16000/24000, a
major difference. Same with 4 Fan 30 Fu and 5 Fan, barely any
difference with 1 additional Fan, hence the "Kiri Age" (Mangan
rounding up) rule.

And the Japan Pro MJ League should seriously alter the Fan values for
several yakus because they are too undervalued for their rarity, it is
ridiculous. I dunno why they don't do anything about it after 2 or 3
decades (since Modern Japanese started).
Archon_Wing
2007-03-06 00:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by John (Z R) L
Post by Archon_Wing
Well honestly, I've had an antagonistic relationship with non-scoring
winds. The first time I really played Mahjong, I was playing at a
friend's house who had a really strange rule-- You couldn't score
Mixed one suit if you had non scoring winds.
In Japanese mj, there is a local yaku called "Ura Kaze" (Inner Wind) I
think, where you score 1 Fan for getting a Pon/Kan of the opposite
wind. E.g. Player East melds "West" (Vice Versa) and Player South
melds "North". I also added "Kinchi Doku Ritsu" which is 1 Fan for
having all 4 melds revealed, and winning on the last pair.
I don't like either rule. Inner Wind would create one of two
undesirable situations. One is where it combines with the prevailing
wind which makes it a double wind worth more than your own wind. The
other is where you have 3 scoring winds. Both cases clash strongly
with the theme of winds which is that only exclusive winds to you
should score. This makes them too close to dragons. The other rule is
the same as CO's "all exposed"-- 1 fan is too much,
Post by John (Z R) L
Post by Archon_Wing
HKOS inherited its pattern list from Chinese Classical, which really wasn't a
pattern-centered system to begin with, thus there were simply not enough
patterns to sustain pattern-building play. Adding a single pattern, Three
Similar Sequences, would work 3 times as many wonders as any minimum requirement.
I personally found the Yahoo rules very bland, they don't even award 1
Fan for "Tanyao" or "Self Pick". So for 3 Fan or even 5/7 Fan games,
virtually everyone aims for a "Koutsu kei" (Pon/Kan related) or "Iisou
kei" (One suit related) hand. Although I do like the fact that "Toi
toi" (All Triples) is actually 3 Fan, unlike the 2 Fan in Japanese.
Yahoo is a weird place which uses a strange variant of classical rules
(Scoring honors must be concealed to score a fan-- wtf? Try it
yourself) However, the community that plays there often plays by their
own arbitrary rules while ignoring the yahoo ones which they expect
everyone else to know. They base the system off HKOS, and will often
demand "3 fan games" despite the fact that they don't know how to
count fan in the first place. To many of them "3 fan" is just a code
name for one suit/all pong. It's good that No Terminals doesn't count,
as it would really break the game for either system.
Post by John (Z R) L
Post by Archon_Wing
I find it really annoying that the spaces are so big so that 4
and 6 fan hands are worth the same. This could mean Mixed one suit+ no
flower is worth the same as Pure One Suit. That feels very wrong. And
of course self draw makes it even more ridiculous.
The same problem occurs in Japanese. 6-7 Fan is Haneman. If I get 7
Fan, I feel a bit annoyed that I'm 1 Fan short of Baiman, which
would've increased the score from 12000/18000 to 16000/24000, a
major difference. Same with 4 Fan 30 Fu and 5 Fan, barely any
difference with 1 additional Fan, hence the "Kiri Age" (Mangan
rounding up) rule.
The worst gap is between Baiman and SanBaiman. ;0 It would probaly be
better if it went 8000/16000/24000/32000/40000, but that's probaly
broken too. :p
Post by John (Z R) L
And the Japan Pro MJ League should seriously alter the Fan values for
several yakus because they are too undervalued for their rarity, it is
ridiculous. I dunno why they don't do anything about it after 2 or 3
decades (since Modern Japanese started).
Change is a difficult thing. People don't like change, and it's
difficult to implement changes on a wide scale so that people will
accept it. There are pros that built their lives around the game most
likely, and even subtle changes can affect strategy drastically. And
of course, there's no telling if the changes themselves will be
balanced. Look at Chinese Official for a example of an attempt of
radical change that didn't come across well. Japanese Modern would be
really difficult to fix-- as Alan Kwan pointed out earlier in this
discussion, the Fan system is quite broken.
John (Z R) L
2007-03-06 00:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Yahoo is a weird place which uses a strange variant of classical rules
(Scoring honors must be concealed to score a fan-- wtf? Try it
yourself) However, the community that plays there often plays by their
own arbitrary rules while ignoring the yahoo ones which they expect
everyone else to know. They base the system off HKOS, and will often
demand "3 fan games" despite the fact that they don't know how to
count fan in the first place. To many of them "3 fan" is just a code
name for one suit/all pong. It's good that No Terminals doesn't count,
as it would really break the game for either system.
When I played Yahoo! Mj, I do receive 1 Fan for a revealed Dragon/
Correct Wind Pon/Kan. You were probably with tight people. I also
dislike Yahoo! Mj because the computerized scoring is not calculated
correctly, unlike Four Winds/HKMJ Pro (JR Fitch)/Shanghai Dynasty.
Several Fan increases the score too much exponentially. Also, it is
true that some of them don't know how to score, because there was a
case of someone getting kicked out of the room for winning with "All
Chows" + "Fully Concealed hand" + "1 Correct Flower" = 3 Fan. People
assume that because the Chows weren't in the same suit that his hand
wasn't worth 3 fan, so it was the kickers that were stupid/ignorant.

Plus, people quit halfway through the game, so you have to wait for
another person to join in which is frustrating. In the Japanese Ron2
program, if someone quits or accidentally gets disconnected, the
Computer AI plays for you temporarily, called "Omakase". And you can't
change the length of the game either, 4 Wind Rounds takes too long, I
can only bear 2 at most (East + South Round, Japanese Hanchan).
Post by Archon_Wing
The worst gap is between Baiman and SanBaiman. ;0 It would probaly be
better if it went 8000/16000/24000/32000/40000, but that's probaly
broken too. :p
I think I am starting to like the Zung Jung scoring system. It looks
like an easier way to teach others the pattern combos and it avoids
the "Fu" calculation. And it lowers the value of "Men Tan Pin" to
discourage people from berserking it all the time.
Post by Archon_Wing
Change is a difficult thing. People don't like change, and it's
difficult to implement changes on a wide scale so that people will
accept it. There are pros that built their lives around the game most
likely, and even subtle changes can affect strategy drastically. And
of course, there's no telling if the changes themselves will be
balanced. Look at Chinese Official for a example of an attempt of
radical change that didn't come across well. Japanese Modern would be
really difficult to fix-- as Alan Kwan pointed out earlier in this
discussion, the Fan system is quite broken.
It would be nice if they had a transition, just like Classical to
Modern Japanese. Where they introduced "Riichi" in the late 60's/early
70's I think and people just accepted it. I dunno how they would tell
people to change though, maybe too conservative.
Archon_Wing
2007-03-06 00:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by John (Z R) L
Post by Archon_Wing
Yahoo is a weird place which uses a strange variant of classical rules
(Scoring honors must be concealed to score a fan-- wtf? Try it
yourself) However, the community that plays there often plays by their
own arbitrary rules while ignoring the yahoo ones which they expect
everyone else to know. They base the system off HKOS, and will often
demand "3 fan games" despite the fact that they don't know how to
count fan in the first place. To many of them "3 fan" is just a code
name for one suit/all pong. It's good that No Terminals doesn't count,
as it would really break the game for either system.
When I played Yahoo! Mj, I do receive 1 Fan for a revealed Dragon/
Correct Wind Pon/Kan. You were probably with tight people.
I'm referring to the computerized scoring here. ;p
Post by John (Z R) L
Also, it is
true that some of them don't know how to score, because there was a
case of someone getting kicked out of the room for winning with "All
Chows" + "Fully Concealed hand" + "1 Correct Flower" = 3 Fan. People
assume that because the Chows weren't in the same suit that his hand
wasn't worth 3 fan, so it was the kickers that were stupid/ignorant.
To make things worse everyone believes that they are right. I would
admit though that a lot of HKOS players are not aware of the concealed
pattern though.
Post by John (Z R) L
Plus, people quit halfway through the game, so you have to wait for
another person to join in which is frustrating. In the Japanese Ron2
program, if someone quits or accidentally gets disconnected, the
Computer AI plays for you temporarily, called "Omakase". And you can't
change the length of the game either, 4 Wind Rounds takes too long, I
can only bear 2 at most (East + South Round, Japanese Hanchan).
I can't read Japanese, so I can't really play Ron2. ;p I think a 2
round game is too short, as luck can play a huge factor in so little
games. I do believe most players play multiple hanchans.
Post by John (Z R) L
Post by Archon_Wing
Change is a difficult thing. People don't like change, and it's
difficult to implement changes on a wide scale so that people will
accept it. There are pros that built their lives around the game most
likely, and even subtle changes can affect strategy drastically. And
of course, there's no telling if the changes themselves will be
balanced. Look at Chinese Official for a example of an attempt of
radical change that didn't come across well. Japanese Modern would be
really difficult to fix-- as Alan Kwan pointed out earlier in this
discussion, the Fan system is quite broken.
It would be nice if they had a transition, just like Classical to
Modern Japanese. Where they introduced "Riichi" in the late 60's/early
70's I think and people just accepted it. I dunno how they would tell
people to change though, maybe too conservative.
Well, the thing is we'd have to take down a lot of what people see as
"the game" The taking down of Kui-Sagari and higher scoring of the
pung based patterns would really change the game. But I suppose it's
not a good idea to be satisfied easily
Alan Kwan
2007-03-06 02:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
To make things worse everyone believes that they are right. I would
admit though that a lot of HKOS players are not aware of the concealed
pattern though.
It's not a "standard" pattern in HKOS. The players are there to play "3-faan
HKOS", in which the very definition of the winning hand is not the regular hand,
but rather the Mixed One-Suit and All Triplet hands. They don't care about
Yahoo scoring.
Post by Archon_Wing
I think I am starting to like the Zung Jung scoring system. It looks
like an easier way to teach others the pattern combos and it avoids
the "Fu" calculation. And it lowers the value of "Men Tan Pin" to
discourage people from berserking it all the time.
The "fu" calculation was on old system, "lost" in China and most other places
because of its complexity, and because of its low significance in modern
(faan-)pattern-based mahjong. Modern Japanese retains it simply because they
are too slow to change.

Men Tan Pin were basically three patterns which were too easy/over-valued, and
introduced without proper consideration of their "combo" effect.
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by John (Z R) L
Post by Archon_Wing
Change is a difficult thing. People don't like change, and it's
difficult to implement changes on a wide scale so that people will
accept it. There are pros that built their lives around the game most
likely, and even subtle changes can affect strategy drastically.
... unless the system was consciously built considering this in the first place:
any small changes to the system should have a small effect. Basically, this
means that the system has to be additive (not faan-exponential), and there must
not be a minimum requirement for winning.

On this principle, I can safely make minor adjustments to score values in Zung Jung.
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by John (Z R) L
Post by Archon_Wing
And
of course, there's no telling if the changes themselves will be
balanced. Look at Chinese Official for a example of an attempt of
radical change that didn't come across well.
It wasn't really any attempt at change or "improvement". They were merely
trying to make a "unified" version, and they had no direction or principles, so
they just tossed everything they could find into the pot.

That's the problem with many modern versions: they are built on phenomena, on
what the developer(s) observes in the immediately preceeding version(s). No
regard is paid to the cause of those phenomena; without understand the cause,
one cannot properly determine whether a certain element is desirable or not.
Only with a good understanding of the earlier versions and their underlying
concepts, and not only the process of development but also the reasons behind
such development, can a truly improved version worthy of becoming the unified
standard be developed.
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by John (Z R) L
Post by Archon_Wing
Japanese Modern would be
really difficult to fix-- as Alan Kwan pointed out earlier in this
discussion, the Fan system is quite broken.
It would be nice if they had a transition, just like Classical to
Modern Japanese. Where they introduced "Riichi" in the late 60's/early
70's I think and people just accepted it. I dunno how they would tell
people to change though, maybe too conservative.
Well, the thing is we'd have to take down a lot of what people see as
"the game" The taking down of Kui-Sagari and higher scoring of the
pung based patterns would really change the game. But I suppose it's
not a good idea to be satisfied easily
The Japanese, just like any other area, mostly know only their own version ("the
game")
and is oblivious to the existence, let alone strengths, of other versions. They
don't
have any understanding, just like Hong Kong OS players, of how and why their
system is like that now, having developed from earlier versions. Thus there is
no incentive for change.

It is ironic that, while "riichi" began as a gambler's rule to raise stakes and
facilitate cheating, now the Japanese consider it an essential skill element -
and then attach all kinds of crazy lucky bonuses (ura-dora, etc.) to it.
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Tom Sloper
2007-03-06 04:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
It's not a "standard" pattern in HKOS. The players are there to play
"3-faan HKOS", in which the very definition of the winning hand is not the
regular hand, but rather the Mixed One-Suit and All Triplet hands. They
don't care about Yahoo scoring.
I worked for Yahoo Games last year, and I can tell you -- neither does
Yahoo. (^_^) The game works, it doesn't make them much money, so they don't
intend to do anything to improve the experience.
I read with interest Archon's & John's experiences as well.
Cheers to all,
Tom
Archon_Wing
2007-03-06 18:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Archon_Wing
And
of course, there's no telling if the changes themselves will be
balanced. Look at Chinese Official for a example of an attempt of
radical change that didn't come across well.
It wasn't really any attempt at change or "improvement". They were merely
trying to make a "unified" version, and they had no direction or principles, so
they just tossed everything they could find into the pot.
It is just my speculation, since I have really no idea what they were
thinking, but I feel that they were trying to come up with some kind
of "new age mahjong" As there are so many variants, maybe they thought
it was a good idea to come up with a version much different, yet
similar to numerous variants out there. CO places a great deal of
value in irregular hands, while undervaluing more typical patterns.
Given the really high minimum, it would seem that they wanted to
emphasize irregular or exotic hands over more mundane "regular hands"
Or perhaps it's easier to say they didn't think at all. :)
Archon_Wing
2007-03-06 18:55:09 UTC
Permalink
To add on the my previous post. "Irregular" was probaly not the right
term. I'm referring to odd criteria such as "reversible tiles' and
"upper tiles" etc
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Archon_Wing
And
of course, there's no telling if the changes themselves will be
balanced. Look at Chinese Official for a example of an attempt of
radical change that didn't come across well.
It wasn't really any attempt at change or "improvement". They were merely
trying to make a "unified" version, and they had no direction or principles, so
they just tossed everything they could find into the pot.
It is just my speculation, since I have really no idea what they were
thinking, but I feel that they were trying to come up with some kind
of "new age mahjong" As there are so many variants, maybe they thought
it was a good idea to come up with a version much different, yet
similar to numerous variants out there. CO places a great deal of
value in irregular hands, while undervaluing more typical patterns.
Given the really high minimum, it would seem that they wanted to
emphasize irregular or exotic hands over more mundane "regular hands"
Or perhaps it's easier to say they didn't think at all. :)
tsloper
2007-03-06 19:32:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
It wasn't really any attempt at change or "improvement". They were merely
trying to make a "unified" version, and they had no direction or principles, so
they just tossed everything they could find into the pot.
It is just my speculation, since I have really no idea what they were
thinking, but I feel that they were trying to come up with some kind
of "new age mahjong" As there are so many variants, maybe they thought
it was a good idea to come up with a version much different, yet
similar to numerous variants out there. CO places a great deal of
value in irregular hands, while undervaluing more typical patterns.
Given the really high minimum, it would seem that they wanted to
emphasize irregular or exotic hands over more mundane "regular hands"
Or perhaps it's easier to say they didn't think at all. :)
No, Alan is closer. The writers wanted to make a version that would be
playable by players all across China, who were used to playing in
their own regional ways.
The goal was to make a variant that would be legal - that would not
involve gambling - and be suitable for nationwide competitions.

They did collect ideas from regional variants and "toss them into the
pot," and had regional leaders taste the stew to approve it.
Adjustments were made prior to first going to press. Today the rules
are still being improved and adjusted as information is gathered at
competitions and from regional leaders.

Tom
Alan Kwan
2007-03-07 01:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by tsloper
Post by Alan Kwan
It wasn't really any attempt at change or "improvement". They were merely
trying to make a "unified" version, and they had no direction or principles, so
they just tossed everything they could find into the pot.
The writers wanted to make a version that would be
playable by players all across China, who were used to playing in
their own regional ways.
... and ended up making a version that would be UNplayable by (most) players all
across China, or all over the world.
Post by tsloper
The goal was to make a variant that would be legal - that would not
involve gambling - and be suitable for nationwide competitions.
... and their method was to make a variant that would not be played outside
formal competitions, because it was too complex and not fun.

It's not even more skill-based than any other version, given the self-draw
inflation, and the insignificance of hand pattern value beyond the minimum
requirement (because of huge basic points and self-draw inflation). To say that
playing their version is sport while playing any other version is gambling is a
very bad joke.
Post by tsloper
They did collect ideas from regional variants and "toss them into the
pot," and had regional leaders taste the stew to approve it.
Adjustments were made prior to first going to press. Today the rules
are still being improved and adjusted as information is gathered at
competitions and from regional leaders.
Given China's /political/ climate, it's useless to ask anybody because they are
pretty much obliged to say yes (to avoid possible persecution or sudden
disappearance :) ). Asking at competitions is meaningless - dissenters are not
at the competitions in the first place.

The tactic of asking people for opinions, for the purpose of identifying
dissenters for elimination has been used many times by the Chinese communist party.
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
John (Z R) L
2007-03-07 02:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sloper
I worked for Yahoo Games last year, and I can tell you -- neither does
Yahoo. (^_^) The game works, it doesn't make them much money, so they don't
intend to do anything to improve the experience.
How did you work at Yahoo Games? And how does the free standard Yahoo
Games like 4 player "MJ" (Instead of the hordes of MJ Solitaire games
on there) make them earn money, by comission? They had an option to
select 16 tiles Taiwanese-style Mj when creating a table, but it was
always in grey so you couldn't actually select it.

I had a similar problem with the "Go-Stop" game, where you weren't
allowed to play against Robots anymore. It didn't seem to work and it
has been that way for at least 2 years by now. I emailed Yahoo! Games
assistance and the woman said "Our technicians will be working on the
game to fix this bug.", but they did absolutely nothing. "Hmph".
John (Z R) L
2007-03-07 02:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
CO places a great deal of
value in irregular hands, while undervaluing more typical patterns.
Given the really high minimum, it would seem that they wanted to
emphasize irregular or exotic hands over more mundane "regular hands"
Yes I agree on this. I virtually never aim for knitted hands unless my
starting deal was very untesselated in the first place. And the hands
which actually use physical effort like "Junchan" (Outside Hand) is
only 4 points. Some people think that the 4 points is justified
because it will mix with "Fan pai" or "Xi Xiang Feng"/"Yi Ban
Gao" (Two similar Sequences/Double Sequence) etc to make 8+ points.

But that logic is akin to Japanese people saying that "Sanshoku
Doukou" (Three Similar Triples) should only be 2 Fan because it
usually combines with "Toi toi" (All Triples) to make a 4 Fan Mangan
hand minimum. Which is stupid.
Alan Kwan
2007-03-07 07:35:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by John (Z R) L
But that logic is akin to Japanese people saying that "Sanshoku
Doukou" (Three Similar Triples) should only be 2 Fan because it
usually combines with "Toi toi" (All Triples) to make a 4 Fan Mangan
hand minimum. Which is stupid.
May I mention this again: I have /mathematically proven/ that said argument is
plain wrong:

http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/Mahjong/mj_com06.txt
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Tom Sloper
2007-03-07 03:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by John (Z R) L
How did you work at Yahoo Games?
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
Post by John (Z R) L
And how does the free standard Yahoo
Games like 4 player "MJ" (Instead of the hordes of MJ Solitaire games
on there) make them earn money, by comission?
Advertising. To get to their games you have to look at an advertisement.
Post by John (Z R) L
They had an option to
select 16 tiles Taiwanese-style Mj when creating a table, but it was
always in grey so you couldn't actually select it.
Yes, I know. And you never will be able to.
Post by John (Z R) L
I had a similar problem with the "Go-Stop" game, where you weren't
allowed to play against Robots anymore. It didn't seem to work and it
has been that way for at least 2 years by now. I emailed Yahoo! Games
assistance and the woman said "Our technicians will be working on the
game to fix this bug.", but they did absolutely nothing. "Hmph".
Is their Go-Stop game still online? I heard something while I was working
there, that indicated that it would be coming down. I just looked, and I
didn't see it listed...

Tom
Alan Kwan
2007-03-07 07:45:57 UTC
Permalink
After knowing HKOS for over a decade, when I first came into contact with Modern
Japanese mahjong, I was fascinated by the "new" patterns, like a little boy
fascinated by his new toy robot warrior. I thought that the "old" patterns
(One-Suit and All Triplets) were boring, and the new patterns were cool.
Fortunately, for me, this feeling didn't last too long.

I bet that, the CO writers were in the same stage when they were writing those
rules. In other words, it was possible that they did not know most of those
"New Style" patterns until they began their research project two years before.
Post by Archon_Wing
It is just my speculation, since I have really no idea what they were
thinking, but I feel that they were trying to come up with some kind
of "new age mahjong" As there are so many variants, maybe they thought
it was a good idea to come up with a version much different, yet
similar to numerous variants out there. CO places a great deal of
value in irregular hands, while undervaluing more typical patterns.
Given the really high minimum, it would seem that they wanted to
emphasize irregular or exotic hands over more mundane "regular hands"
Or perhaps it's easier to say they didn't think at all. :)
To add on the my previous post. "Irregular" was probaly not the right
term. I'm referring to odd criteria such as "reversible tiles' and
"upper tiles" etc
The terminology I would use are, in line with P&C, "New Style patterns" and "Old
Style patterns".
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
John (Z R) L
2007-03-07 08:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sloper
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
Tom, you worked with Yahoo! last year, but what did you actually do
there?
Post by Tom Sloper
Is their Go-Stop game still online? I heard something while I was working
there, that indicated that it would be coming down. I just looked, and I
didn't see it listed...
Ahhh, they permanently removed Go-Stop!!! Did they remove it because
there weren't enough people playing?
Post by Tom Sloper
Yes, I know. And you never will be able to.
Is it because they can't be bothered changing any of their Yahoo!
Games due to lack of money being made?
Post by Tom Sloper
After knowing HKOS for over a decade, when I first came into contact with Modern
Japanese mahjong, I was fascinated by the "new" patterns, like a little boy
fascinated by his new toy robot warrior. I thought that the "old" patterns
(One-Suit and All Triplets) were boring, and the new patterns were cool.
Fortunately, for me, this feeling didn't last too long.
Alan, I actually learnt the Modern Japanese rules before the HKOS
ones, so I was extremely fascinated and interested at the very start.
The fascinating feeling I got from Modern Japanese has lasted for
around 4 years (first saw Modern Japanese in emulated video game ROMs
which I downloaded). I feel a bit "guilty" abandoning it after all
that time maybe in place for Chinese Official or "Zung Jung" because
I'm already so used to the Japanese rules and scoring system, playing
on MAME/GBA/SNES/N64 and the online Ron2/Tonpuusou servers etc.

So in the meanwhile I edited the Fan values for various hands, and
added a few new ones like your Zung Jung. However, that still doesn't
do justice to the "Laak/Gan" limit system which is quite inaccurate in
terms of scoring value. But sooner or later, I will get over my
"guilt" and say bye bye to Japanese mj and enjoy your creation...
Alan Kwan
2007-03-07 08:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,
Post by John (Z R) L
But sooner or later, I will get over my
"guilt" and say bye bye to Japanese mj and enjoy your creation...
This is just a game, not a religious conversion. You don't need to denounce any
version of mahjong in order to play Zung Jung. You just try it, and if you do
like it better than what you used to play, then play what you want to.

(Supposedly, even religious conversion should have been the same: one shouldn't
need to denounce any previous religion/philosophy/moral teachings, as long as
they are "good", in order to explore the teachings of the next religion.)

I speak a lot against other systems, but those are just my opinion. I developed
and played ZJ, and I like it better than the others, and I try to make explicit
my reasons for it; it's just that. I am not going to use political power, etc.
to force people to like my system. :) I certainly do not categorically condemn
other systems for being "gambling". :D
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
tsloper
2007-03-07 16:07:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John (Z R) L
Tom, you worked with Yahoo! last year, but what did you actually do
there?

Producing IPTV games. I sat next to the producer who was making the
new Flash version of Yahoo! Chess.
Post by John (Z R) L
Ahhh, they permanently removed Go-Stop!!! Did they remove it because
there weren't enough people playing?

No.
Post by John (Z R) L
Is it because they can't be bothered changing any of their Yahoo!
Games

I was not talking about ALL of their games. I was talking about their
mahjong game.
Post by John (Z R) L
due to lack of money being made?
As I said in my previous post.

Tom
tsloper
2007-03-07 16:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John (Z R) L
Tom, you worked with Yahoo! last year, but what did you actually do
there?

Producing IPTV games. I sat next to the producer who was making the
new Flash version of Yahoo! Chess.
Post by John (Z R) L
Ahhh, they permanently removed Go-Stop!!! Did they remove it because
there weren't enough people playing?

No.
Post by John (Z R) L
Is it because they can't be bothered changing any of their Yahoo!
Games

I was not talking about ALL of their games. I was talking about their
mahjong game.
Post by John (Z R) L
due to lack of money being made?
As I said in my previous post.

Tom
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-10 10:24:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Nath Krismaratala
If you read carefully the Canadian trademark's regulations, the
exactly same principles apply in Canada.
Poor Cofa. The CIPO clearly should have rejected his trademark for being
"plainly descriptive".
But intead they just took his money - for which Cofa couldn't get any
useful "protection" at all in return (since it /is/ plainly descriptive).
But just exactly how any more poorer Cofa is than any other trademark
registrants, if all laws, regulations and rules apply exactly the same to
everyone?

In fact, I consider sections (3)(c) and (d) [quoted by Alan] are reasonable
and necessary:

QUOTE
(3) A registered trade mark is not infringed by-

(a) the use by a person of his own name or address or the name of his place
of business;
(b) the use by a person of the name of his predecessor in business or the
name of his predecessor's place of business;
(c) the use of signs which serve to designate the kind, quality, quantity,
intended purpose, value, geographical origin, time of production of goods or
rendering of services, or other characteristics of goods or services; or
(d) the use of the trade mark where it is necessary to indicate the intended
purpose of goods or services (for example, as accessories or spare parts),

provided the use is in accordance with honest practices in industrial or
commercial matters.
UNQUOTE
(http://www.legislation.gov.hk/blis_ind.nsf/FB2D3FD8A4E2A3264825647C0030A9E1/DE560351BA8A2C6E4825697D0028E34D?OpenDocument)

Trademark laws in various jurisdictions have common standards to determine
what is "clearly descriptive" or "deceptively misdescriptive."
[http://strategis.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/tm/tm_gd_regis-e.html] A simple search
in trademark database in various jurisdictions will surprise you by numerous
marks containing words like "International", "National", "Canadian", "Hong
Kong", etc.

Ignoring the fact that they are really registered trademarks based on one's
personal opinions won't change their trademark status, but would, in my
opinion, simply indicate one's lack of knowledge and non-respect to other's
rights.
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Alan Kwan
2007-03-10 11:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
(3) A registered trade mark is not infringed by-
(c) the use of signs which serve to designate the kind, quality, quantity,
intended purpose, value, geographical origin, time of production of goods or
rendering of services, or other characteristics of goods or services; or
Ignoring the fact that they are really registered trademarks based on one's
personal opinions won't change their trademark status, but would, in my
opinion, simply indicate one's lack of knowledge and non-respect to other's
rights.
We respect your trademark, but we also feel the need to point out our rights to the
virtually free use of your trademarked name, as allowed by the law.
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-10 20:06:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Cofa Tsui
(3) A registered trade mark is not infringed by-
(c) the use of signs which serve to designate the kind, quality,
quantity, intended purpose, value, geographical origin, time of
production of goods or rendering of services, or other characteristics of
goods or services; or
Ignoring the fact that they are really registered trademarks based on
one's personal opinions won't change their trademark status, but would,
in my opinion, simply indicate one's lack of knowledge and non-respect to
other's rights.
We respect your trademark, but we also feel the need to point out our rights to the
virtually free use of your trademarked name, as allowed by the law.
Poor cut and paste rendering!

The law systems and the industries rely on the full contexts of the laws.
Example:
"
(3) A registered trade mark is not infringed by-
[...]
(c) the use of signs which serve to designate the kind, quality, quantity,
intended purpose, value, geographical origin, time of production of goods or
rendering of services, or other characteristics of goods or services; or
[...]
provided the use is in accordance with honest practices in industrial or
commercial matters.
"

Sadly there are still law breakers (scum?) on earth but it is fortunate
enough those who are recognized as world's high level industrial and
commercial players consent to the true and full interpretation of relative
laws.
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Alan Kwan
2007-03-11 05:05:20 UTC
Permalink
Poor Cofa,

The last thing your trademark would allow you is to regulate what words people
may use in their writings and discussions. Otherwise, we will all be talking in
Mar's language (until when people start getting trademarks in that language!).

Sue me if you want. I can easily defend myself in court; I won't even need to
hire a lawyer.
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Julian Bradfield
2007-03-03 10:52:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cofa Tsui
Trademarks registered in Canada also enjoy protection in member countries of
relative international treaties.
From the CIPO Trademark FAQ
(http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/tm/faq_tm-e.html#11)

Does registration in Canada protect my rights in other countries?
No. If your products are sold in other countries, you should consider
applying for foreign registration. Contact a trade-mark agent or the
embassy of the country in question to find out about procedures.
Cofa Tsui
2007-03-10 10:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julian Bradfield
Post by Cofa Tsui
Trademarks registered in Canada also enjoy protection in member countries of
relative international treaties.
From the CIPO Trademark FAQ
(http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/tm/faq_tm-e.html#11)
Does registration in Canada protect my rights in other countries?
No. If your products are sold in other countries, you should consider
applying for foreign registration. Contact a trade-mark agent or the
embassy of the country in question to find out about procedures.
Canadian laws won't apply in other countries; protection is from other
international treaties. I am not a lawyer but I am satisfied with the advice
of my trademark agent.
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Archon_Wing
2007-03-03 09:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Please tell them that it is the system being adopted by the highest-level
international mahjong competition. As the Chinese saying goes, "A rich reward
will attract the brave hero." 「重賞之下,必有勇夫。」 The best mahjong players
will come to the World Series of Mahjong.
Played Zung Jung with my friends today, although I referred to it as
the "World Series of Mahjong Rules" ;)
They weren't really sure of this at first, but I assured that gameplay
would remain relatively the same. Nothing groundbreaking but it went
ok I guess. There seemed to be a bit of excitement over "Big three
winds" and the fact that kongs counted for something. As you would
know, that would be because non-scoring winds and kongs are pretty
worthless in HKOS and many other systems. The prevailing wind wasn't
really missed, since we no longer had to keep track of the round wind.
I was annoyed to come across three East winds when it didn't match my
seat though. I consider east one of my lucky tiles. ^^ People were
more willing to keep honor tiles. In systems where an honor pung is
counted the same as all sequences, one would be more inclined to go
for all sequences as it combines well with other things. The most
popular patterns tended to be two identical sequences, mixed lesser
terminals, and all pongs. There were relatively few hands that were 10
points or less. Without a min requirement, one would think that there
would be tons of chicken hands, but that wasn't the case. Or perhaps
the deals were just lucky.

I came close to winning, but unfortunately one of my friends got
rather lucky with the tiles and quickly built up mixed one suit hands
like crazy. I was rather disappointed that I was on the verge of
completing a very big hand (two tiles away with a lot of the wall
remaining) but was foiled. It was something like:
Pung of 9 bamboo, pung of south wind
Pairs of 1 dot, East Wind, and North Wind
Some random honor
It was still concealed and my seat wind was east. Ah, what could have
been. With a few more lucky draws it could have been Mixed Terminals/
Big Three winds/ 3 or 4 concealed pungs which would have been
limit. :p
Alan Kwan
2007-03-03 16:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Played Zung Jung with my friends today, although I referred to it as
the "World Series of Mahjong Rules" ;)
Thank you for trying Zung Jung. It /is/ referred to as the "World Series of
Mahjong Scoring System" for the competition in question.
Post by Archon_Wing
They weren't really sure of this at first, but I assured that gameplay
would remain relatively the same. Nothing groundbreaking
... which is good. A groundbreaking mahjong scoring system is a disastrous one.
Groundbreaking is not the "way of Zung Jung" (in Confucian philosophy).
Post by Archon_Wing
There seemed to be a bit of excitement over "Big three winds"
and the fact that kongs counted for something. As you would
know, that would be because non-scoring winds and kongs are pretty
worthless in HKOS and many other systems. The prevailing wind wasn't
really missed, since we no longer had to keep track of the round wind.
[...] People were
more willing to keep honor tiles. In systems where an honor pung is
counted the same as all sequences, one would be more inclined to go
for all sequences as it combines well with other things.
As you probably know already, these are intended adjustments to balance various
elements in mahjong, to give rise to the best variety during play.
Post by Archon_Wing
I was annoyed to come across three East winds when it didn't match my
seat though. I consider east one of my lucky tiles. ^^
The most
popular patterns tended to be two identical sequences, mixed lesser
terminals, and all pongs.
Beginners to Zung Jung often tend to attempt the Lesser Terminals patterns.
Because of the large number of usable tiles, there are plenty of chances to have
a "good start" (a starting hand 3 to 5 tiles from calling Mixed Lesser
Terminals). But because of the restrictions on acceptable sets, it is often
difficult to advance the hand, and the rate of success is only mediocre even
with a "good start".

In contrast, starting hands 4 tiles from calling Mixed One-Suit are relatively
rare, but the success rate would be much higher.

The presence of both these patterns, besides the higher value for value honor
triplets, fairly give more weight to the honors. One who is dealt two honor
pairs should usually try for some medium (40-point) hand. A concealed triplet
of winds is not a bad thing, even though they're not your seat wind. :)
Post by Archon_Wing
There were relatively few hands that were 10
points or less. Without a min requirement, one would think that there
would be tons of chicken hands, but that wasn't the case. Or perhaps
the deals were just lucky.
This is in fact typical. Like baseball, there are "high-score" and "low-score"
sessions, but 30+ hands tend to take up 25-50% of the hands.

The comparison is not difficult. HKOS has two principle medium patterns: Mixed
One-Suit and All Triplets. ZJ adds Three Similar Sequences, Nine-Tile Straight,
and Lesser Terminals. So ZJ gives you about 2.5 times as many medium hands as
HKOS. If HKOS gives you 2 or 3 medium hands per 16, ZJ would give you 5 to 8.
Exactly the amount we need for fun and excitement. :)

The point is to control the scoring system, so that these are the medium hands
(not counted as 1-faan garbage for exposed Three Similar Sequences / Nine-Tile
Straight / Mixed Lesser Terminals in Modern Japanese) and other easy
combinations (such as Concealed-Middle-Sequences-Dora in Modern Japanese) are
not medium hands. The result is that in play of Zung Jung, a good variety of
beautiful, elegant hands will be completed - as they are defined by the very
patterns themselves, not by the peculiarities (such as, favoring certain easy
combos) of the scoring system.
Post by Archon_Wing
I was rather disappointed that I was on the verge of
completing a very big hand (two tiles away with a lot of the wall
Pung of 9 bamboo, pung of south wind
Pairs of 1 dot, East Wind, and North Wind
Some random honor
It was still concealed and my seat wind was east. Ah, what could have
been. With a few more lucky draws it could have been Mixed Terminals/
Big Three winds/ 3 or 4 concealed pungs which would have been
limit. :p
Theorectically (combinatorically) Mixed Lesser Terminals is not really that rare
or difficult, but the problem is that, if you get so many nice terminals, your
opponents would get all the middle tiles in the world to play with, and someone
would be likely to go out quickly. :p
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Archon_Wing
2007-03-03 19:13:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
Beginners to Zung Jung often tend to attempt the Lesser Terminals patterns.
Because of the large number of usable tiles, there are plenty of chances to have
a "good start" (a starting hand 3 to 5 tiles from calling Mixed Lesser
Terminals). But because of the restrictions on acceptable sets, it is often
difficult to advance the hand, and the rate of success is only mediocre even
with a "good start".
In contrast, starting hands 4 tiles from calling Mixed One-Suit are relatively
rare, but the success rate would be much higher.
Ah yes, Mixed terminals cannot end on a double sided wait. But I must
admit, it's still better than playing 3fan HKOS where one would go for
mixed one suit when you have 3-3-3 with random honors, aka pulling
teeth. ;)
Post by Alan Kwan
The presence of both these patterns, besides the higher value for value honor
triplets, fairly give more weight to the honors. One who is dealt two honor
pairs should usually try for some medium (40-point) hand. A concealed triplet
of winds is not a bad thing, even though they're not your seat wind. :)
Yes, I can sort of feel that honor tiles are some kind of special
tile, an "honor" to have them, instead of a burden. Getting a non-
scoring concealed wind triplet in something like Japanese Modern, is
just a pain.
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Archon_Wing
There were relatively few hands that were 10
points or less. Without a min requirement, one would think that there
would be tons of chicken hands, but that wasn't the case. Or perhaps
the deals were just lucky.
This is in fact typical. Like baseball, there are "high-score" and "low-score"
sessions, but 30+ hands tend to take up 25-50% of the hands.
The comparison is not difficult. HKOS has two principle medium patterns: Mixed
One-Suit and All Triplets. ZJ adds Three Similar Sequences, Nine-Tile Straight,
and Lesser Terminals. So ZJ gives you about 2.5 times as many medium hands as
HKOS. If HKOS gives you 2 or 3 medium hands per 16, ZJ would give you 5 to 8.
Exactly the amount we need for fun and excitement. :)
Yes, these patterns are pretty much the core of a game. One of my
friends seems pretty bent on completing 3 similar triplets. ;o
Post by Alan Kwan
The point is to control the scoring system, so that these are the medium hands
(not counted as 1-faan garbage for exposed Three Similar Sequences / Nine-Tile
Straight / Mixed Lesser Terminals in Modern Japanese) and other easy
combinations (such as Concealed-Middle-Sequences-Dora in Modern Japanese) are
not medium hands. The result is that in play of Zung Jung, a good variety of
beautiful, elegant hands will be completed - as they are defined by the very
patterns themselves, not by the peculiarities (such as, favoring certain easy
combos) of the scoring system.
1 fan 3SS/Itsu is an attrocity IMO. Many of us do share that
sentiment. ;p
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Archon_Wing
I was rather disappointed that I was on the verge of
completing a very big hand (two tiles away with a lot of the wall
Pung of 9 bamboo, pung of south wind
Pairs of 1 dot, East Wind, and North Wind
Some random honor
It was still concealed and my seat wind was east. Ah, what could have
been. With a few more lucky draws it could have been Mixed Terminals/
Big Three winds/ 3 or 4 concealed pungs which would have been
limit. :p
Theorectically (combinatorically) Mixed Lesser Terminals is not really that rare
or difficult, but the problem is that, if you get so many nice terminals, your
opponents would get all the middle tiles in the world to play with, and someone
would be likely to go out quickly. :p
I forgot to clarify the post-- I was aiming for the Mixed Greater
Terminals, which I think is quite rare. But yea, your explanation that
everyone can take simples from me probaly explains my downfall. I
suppose I have way too much of an obsession with honor tiles because
they are pretty. It's a bad beginner habit I know, but 10 points is
incentive enough. In Japanese Modern, honors are the first things to
go almost. ;p
Alan Kwan
2007-03-04 14:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
Beginners to Zung Jung often tend to attempt the Lesser Terminals patterns.
Because of the large number of usable tiles, there are plenty of chances to have
a "good start" (a starting hand 3 to 5 tiles from calling Mixed Lesser
Terminals). But because of the restrictions on acceptable sets, it is often
difficult to advance the hand, and the rate of success is only mediocre even
with a "good start".
In contrast, starting hands 4 tiles from calling Mixed One-Suit are relatively
rare, but the success rate would be much higher.
Ah yes, Mixed terminals cannot end on a double sided wait. But I must
admit, it's still better than playing 3fan HKOS where one would go for
mixed one suit when you have 3-3-3 with random honors, aka pulling
teeth. ;)
HKOS is okay, but (as my signitaure indicates) 3-faan HKOS is very
un-mathematical and just crazy. It was evidently proposed by people who knew
absolutely nothing about combinatorics and statistical distributions.

For Lesser Terminals, it's quite easy to get a "good start" but it is difficult
to advance the hand towards completion. One-Suit is the other way round: "good
start" deals are rare, but if you get one which has enough partial sets, you can
claim (from opponents' discards) the tiles you need, so it is not that difficult
to advance your hand. But if you don't have a good start, you need to draw the
right suit tiles and matching honor tiles, and you need to be very lucky to succeed.

Thus, forcing players to attempt Mixed One-Suit with inappropriate deals, by
requiring either Mixed One-Suit or All Triplets in order to go out, is really
atrocious.
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
The presence of both these patterns, besides the higher value for value honor
triplets, fairly give more weight to the honors. One who is dealt two honor
pairs should usually try for some medium (40-point) hand. A concealed triplet
of winds is not a bad thing, even though they're not your seat wind. :)
Yes, I can sort of feel that honor tiles are some kind of special
tile, an "honor" to have them, instead of a burden. Getting a non-
scoring concealed wind triplet in something like Japanese Modern, is
just a pain.
Concealed non-seat wind triplet was worth 8 points in Chinese Classical, and
quite valuable - especially before "the great inflation". When "No Points"
became a 1 faan pattern atop 20 points for winning, the 8 points started to look
pale. And when Japanese Classical brought in "No Terminals", it was totally
turned around. And with the 1-faan minimum requirement in Japanese Modern, it
became a hindrance since it was difficult to connect a non-value wind triplet
with most faan patterns. Plus with all that "concealment inflation", even if
you make Mixed One-Suit or Mixed Lesser Terminals (hands which tend to require
exposure to complete, even starting with a concealed triplet), you make only a
cheap 1-faan or 2-faan hand despite all that effort.
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
HKOS has two principle medium patterns: Mixed
One-Suit and All Triplets. ZJ adds Three Similar Sequences, Nine-Tile Straight,
and Lesser Terminals.
Yes, these patterns are pretty much the core of a game. One of my
friends seems pretty bent on completing 3 similar triplets. ;o
If a scoring system is really well-balanced, then players can afford to have
their own play styles. With a poorly balanced system, everyone has to play by
the same style (go for the advantageous patterns/combinations) in order to be
competitive.

And of course, the 100-pointers are hopefully valued high enough to spark the
deserved excitement when you get the rare opportunity to attempt them.
Apparently that's the case, since you remembered your Mixed Greater Terminals
hand clearly, even though it wasn't completed. :) These patterns are indeed
rare and difficult, and you can't expect them to be completed often. But the
point is to give every one of them a high enough value, so that even seeing the
potentials for one would excite the player, even if eventually the hand isn't
completed (which is usually the case).

2 faan for Three Similar Triplets in Modern Japanese is silly; players don't
bother, and consequently it is completed even less often than Big Three Dragons
(despite having 9 times the combinatorial multiplicity).
Post by Archon_Wing
1 fan 3SS/Itsu is an attrocity IMO. Many of us do share that
sentiment. ;p
Zung Jung does away with the faan system altogether and adopts an additive point
system; one reason is because I don't like the hand value of these medium
sequence patterns to fluctuate greatly by the combination with the easy sequence
patterns (i.e. the Zung Jung category 1 patterns). A Three Similar Sequences
hand should be scored as a Three Similar Sequences hand; fluctuation from 35 to
50 in ZJ is a lot more consistent and balanced than from, for example, 3 faan to
6 faan. I feel that rewarding the quality of patterns, rather than quantity,
makes for more focused and exciting play, and also makes for a game with better
defensive play (it makes more sense to detect and avoid a big pattern than a
combination of many cheap patterns). It is also a pre-requisite for a "neutral"
system, for the purpose of international mahjong competitions, that a hand's
value wouldn't fluctuate greatly just because we're adpoting or not some cheap
patterns.

And of course, historically (according to Haibara) the original mahjong scoring
system was primarily additive; faan then was the exception rather than the norm.
Post by Archon_Wing
I forgot to clarify the post-- I was aiming for the Mixed Greater
Terminals, which I think is quite rare.
I knew that, but mistakenly wrote "Lesser" in my reply. (It's because the terms
"Greater/Lesser" were among the latest changes, hence the least familiar for
myself.) It is indeed quite rare, befitting for a 100+40 pattern.
Post by Archon_Wing
I suppose I have way too much of an obsession with honor tiles because
they are pretty. It's a bad beginner habit I know, but 10 points is
incentive enough. In Japanese Modern, honors are the first things to
go almost. ;p
In Zung Jung, affinity with honor tiles is the correct attitude, by design
intention. :) The concept is explicitly emphasised by devoting an entire
category (#3) to them.

The 10 points not only turn an honor pair/triplet from a hindrance into an
asset; it even encourages holding onto single unmatched honors (for a little
while) over unimportant number tiles. (What "unimportant" means here is a
matter of play style. ;) )
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
Archon_Wing
2007-03-04 21:35:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kwan
HKOS is okay, but (as my signitaure indicates) 3-faan HKOS is very
un-mathematical and just crazy. It was evidently proposed by people who knew
absolutely nothing about combinatorics and statistical distributions.
Unfortunately, 3fan is the most common variant from what I've seen. I
once considered my family's 1 fan requirement to be somewhat
progressive. I rarely play with the older people in my family since I
frequently have trouble building the freaking wall and it looks
silly. ;) HK tiles are so big! However, they do seem impressed by the
fact that I can play at a fairly decent speed, although they do not
like the fact that I prefer to build larger hands. ;p Most of them are
of the "go out as fast as possible" type. After reviewing Zung Jung, I
don't really think any minimum requirement is really necessary.

I think one needs to see the extremes to see how bad it is. For
example, many yahoo players will have "expert tables" that have
ridiculously high fan requirements. They range somewhere between 5-8
fan which makes the whole thing a luckfest. It's simply because people
want to see pretty hands every round, which isn't the way how this
game works. Another unwanted effect is the people will call any hand
that is not mixed one suit or all pung a chicken hand, which isn't
very accurate. Heck, it's called "The Coward" in IMJ. I have no idea
why.

My main problem with HKOS besides the self-draw thing is the laak
system. I find it really annoying that the spaces are so big so that 4
and 6 fan hands are worth the same. This could mean Mixed one suit+ no
flower is worth the same as Pure One Suit. That feels very wrong. And
of course self draw makes it even more ridiculous.
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
The presence of both these patterns, besides the higher value for value honor
triplets, fairly give more weight to the honors. One who is dealt two honor
pairs should usually try for some medium (40-point) hand. A concealed triplet
of winds is not a bad thing, even though they're not your seat wind. :)
Yes, I can sort of feel that honor tiles are some kind of special
tile, an "honor" to have them, instead of a burden. Getting a non-
scoring concealed wind triplet in something like Japanese Modern, is
just a pain.
Concealed non-seat wind triplet was worth 8 points in Chinese Classical, and
quite valuable - especially before "the great inflation". When "No Points"
became a 1 faan pattern atop 20 points for winning, the 8 points started to look
pale. And when Japanese Classical brought in "No Terminals", it was totally
turned around. And with the 1-faan minimum requirement in Japanese Modern, it
became a hindrance since it was difficult to connect a non-value wind triplet
with most faan patterns. Plus with all that "concealment inflation", even if
you make Mixed One-Suit or Mixed Lesser Terminals (hands which tend to require
exposure to complete, even starting with a concealed triplet), you make only a
cheap 1-faan or 2-faan hand despite all that effort.
I have a certain disdain for "No Terminals" It doesn't really strike
me as anything exciting or worth caring about. It's also because it
was heavily abused when we were trying Japanese Modern. ;) I suppose
you could say the same about All sequences as well (You're really
awarding a hand for being bland) and I would advise anyone playing
Classical variants to just drop the double for "No points" However, I
suppose I still hold all sequences in higher regard for no real reason
other than it's a matter of habit to score it.

Well honestly, I've had an antagonistic relationship with non-scoring
winds. The first time I really played Mahjong, I was playing at a
friend's house who had a really strange rule-- You couldn't score
Mixed one suit if you had non scoring winds. As a beginner and faced
with a 3 fan min, that really bothered me, and most of us had to be
like "can I win yet?" :D
Post by Alan Kwan
2 faan for Three Similar Triplets in Modern Japanese is silly; players don't
bother, and consequently it is completed even less often than Big Three Dragons
(despite having 9 times the combinatorial multiplicity).
Because of the way how Japanese Modern works, I'm surprised they even
have any pong based patterns, except the concealed ones. -_-
Post by Alan Kwan
Post by Archon_Wing
I forgot to clarify the post-- I was aiming for the Mixed Greater
Terminals, which I think is quite rare.
I knew that, but mistakenly wrote "Lesser" in my reply. (It's because the terms
"Greater/Lesser" were among the latest changes, hence the least familiar for
myself.) It is indeed quite rare, befitting for a 100+40 pattern.
Ah, I actually still remember them by their Japanese names, Chanta//
Honroutou since that's where I learned the patterns from.
Alan Kwan
2007-03-05 01:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
HKOS is okay, but (as my signitaure indicates) 3-faan HKOS is very
un-mathematical and just crazy. It was evidently proposed by people who knew
absolutely nothing about combinatorics and statistical distributions.
Unfortunately, 3fan is the most common variant from what I've seen.
[...]
they do seem impressed by the
fact that I can play at a fairly decent speed, although they do not
like the fact that I prefer to build larger hands. ;p Most of them are
of the "go out as fast as possible" type. After reviewing Zung Jung, I
don't really think any minimum requirement is really necessary.
3-faan trend: it's unfortunate indeed. Admittedly, "pattern" is the name of the
day, and most players like to build more elegant hands with bigger scores. But
instead of the logical, more interesting direction of adopting more patterns (as
in ZJ), HKOS players took off towards the wrong direction of minimum faan
requirement.

HKOS inherited its pattern list from Chinese Classical, which really wasn't a
pattern-centered system to begin with, thus there were simply not enough
patterns to sustain pattern-building play. Adding a single pattern, Three
Similar Sequences, would work 3 times as many wonders as any minimum requirement.
Post by Archon_Wing
I think one needs to see the extremes to see how bad it is. For
example, many yahoo players will have "expert tables" that have
ridiculously high fan requirements. They range somewhere between 5-8
fan which makes the whole thing a luckfest.
It's like volleyball with an 8-meter net. Yawn.
Post by Archon_Wing
It's simply because people
want to see pretty hands every round, which isn't the way how this
game works. Another unwanted effect is the people will call any hand
that is not mixed one suit or all pung a chicken hand, which isn't
very accurate. Heck, it's called "The Coward" in IMJ. I have no idea
why.
It originates from the paradox of seeking a pattern-centered game using a
pattern list inherited from a system which primarily rewards the player for
merely winning.

If you want to discourage chicken hands, the most logical thing to do is to stop
rewarding them, as in ZJ. HKOS inherited its faan-scoring system from Chinese
Classical, which rewards winning with some significant amount of points. In
fact, the HKOS system approximates (and perhaps was actually evolved from)
Chinese Classical with a huge reward for winning (say 100 points). So the
attitude is paradoxical, and shows the ignorance of the players about the
history of the system they are playing. And let's not talk about COMJ ...
Post by Archon_Wing
My main problem with HKOS besides the self-draw thing is the laak
system. I find it really annoying that the spaces are so big so that 4
and 6 fan hands are worth the same. This could mean Mixed one suit+ no
flower is worth the same as Pure One Suit. That feels very wrong.
The "complex limit systems" in HKOS and Modern Japanese are stitch-and-patch
measures to fix something very broken, namely the faan system with high faan
values. Again, here the most logical thing to do is to do away with the broken
system altogether, as in ZJ.
Post by Archon_Wing
And of course self draw makes it even more ridiculous.
Of course; how can we expect something which is an unintended side effect and/or
a result of mis-propagation to be anything but ridiculous?
Post by Archon_Wing
I have a certain disdain for "No Terminals" It doesn't really strike
me as anything exciting or worth caring about. It's also because it
was heavily abused when we were trying Japanese Modern. ;) I suppose
you could say the same about All sequences as well (You're really
awarding a hand for being bland) and I would advise anyone playing
Classical variants to just drop the double for "No points" However, I
suppose I still hold all sequences in higher regard for no real reason
other than it's a matter of habit to score it.
That's the primary reason why ZJ has category one: these patterns have become
quite popular, especially that the Japanese players can't live without them.
Fortunately, 5 points won't break the game (even of you add up three of them).
In fact, they do spice up the game a little bit, at that score level.

Rewarding two faan for combining two ways of going out as fast as possible, plus
a third faan (and even a fourth: self-draw / totally concealed) for being lucky
at it, is a different matter entirely, though.
Post by Archon_Wing
Well honestly, I've had an antagonistic relationship with non-scoring
winds. The first time I really played Mahjong, I was playing at a
friend's house who had a really strange rule-- You couldn't score
Mixed one suit if you had non scoring winds. As a beginner and faced
with a 3 fan min, that really bothered me, and most of us had to be
like "can I win yet?" :D
Welcome to ZJ, the world of logical consistency, mathematical balance,
conceptual coherence, and rationality. :)
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
2 faan for Three Similar Triplets in Modern Japanese is silly; players don't
bother, and consequently it is completed even less often than Big Three Dragons
(despite having 9 times the combinatorial multiplicity).
Because of the way how Japanese Modern works, I'm surprised they even
have any pong based patterns, except the concealed ones. -_-
The probably reason for the imbalance was that, the patterns were so rare that
they forgot/neglected to revise their values (or failed to revise them
adequately) along with the inflation of the sequence stuff.
Post by Archon_Wing
Post by Alan Kwan
I [...] mistakenly wrote "Lesser" in my reply. (It's because the terms
"Greater/Lesser" were among the latest changes, hence the least familiar for
myself.)
Ah, I actually still remember them by their Japanese names, Chanta//
Honroutou since that's where I learned the patterns from.
And I, being Chinese, remember primarily the Chinese names. The Japanese
pattern names were Chinese to begin with, so they're same and one. I've found
nice English translations for most of them, but Lesser Terminals has always been
a headache.
--
"3-faan minimum mahjong is like volleyball with a 4-meter-high net.
It makes the game more challenging only for novices."
- Alan Kwan / ***@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/
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